Episode 14: Stigmatized Properties

[00:00:01] Speaker A: You are listening to TheRealEstatePodcast CA. Brought to you by JNC Toronto Real Estate Group. Well, hello everyone, and welcome back to TheRealEstatePodcast CA. Today's episode is all about stigmatized properties. Homes that for one reason or another, have gained a reputation that can make them harder to sell. Sometimes it's a pricing strategy gone wrong. You'll be talking a lot about that now, Cheryl. Yes, it's maybe a home that's been sitting on the market too long, price changes. Other times it might be because of a past event that makes potential buyers uneasy about the property, such as crime, tragedy, or even paranormal rumors. [00:00:46] Speaker B: Well, this is. When you told me you wanted to do a podcast on stigmatization, I was like, haunted. [00:00:51] Speaker A: How is it exactly? I think it's going to be a juicy one. So what we're going to cover today is like maybe how properties become stigmatized, what the law says about disclosing this information, and most importantly, how do you navigate buying or selling a stigmatized home? Cheryl and I are attacking all of this today with some real life horror stories, legal insights, and expert advice. As always, whether you're a seller worried about your home's reputation or a buyer wondering what you have the right to know, we've got you covered. But first, let's get into it. The disclaimer. Cheryl, will you do the honors, please? [00:01:27] Speaker B: The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of any entities they represent. [00:01:37] Speaker A: Cheryl, will you do me a favor and explain to me exactly what a stigmatized property is by definition? [00:01:46] Speaker B: Okay, so I've looked up the definition in four dictionaries. That is a lie. You looked up the definition? [00:01:54] Speaker A: I did. [00:01:55] Speaker B: In four different dictionaries. Actually, three. Right. Merriam Webster Dictionary and Collins. So I will tell you what you found. [00:02:01] Speaker A: Thank you. [00:02:02] Speaker B: In Merriam Webster, it means something that is regarded with disapproval. Dictionary.com says it's a verb. Okay, so actually, this is interesting. Merriam Webster said it's an adjective. [00:02:12] Speaker A: It can be both, but I pulled an adjective and a verb. [00:02:15] Speaker B: Okay, so Dictionary.com is a verb to get some mark of disgrace or infamy upon. And then Collins says if someone or something is stigmatized, they are unfairly. Huh. Regarded by many people as being bad or having something to be ashamed of. I think this is very interesting. Unfairly. [00:02:34] Speaker A: Unfairly. [00:02:35] Speaker B: Which I think really does apply to many of the situations. We're going to talk about feeling versus fact. [00:02:40] Speaker A: Yes, exactly. And we talk about emotion versus facts all the Time in real estate, huh? Yeah. So there you go. The common types of stigmas that we have kind of we're gonna lump into two buckets, if you will. [00:02:55] Speaker B: Sure. [00:02:56] Speaker A: And the first one you're gonna be talking about, do you wanna. [00:02:58] Speaker B: Pricing and listing stigmas. So you're asking me to explain when there's a listing that's been overpriced and it sits on the market for a while and then we see it chasing the market and then all of a sudden it becomes stigmatized. And what that means is that buyers perception is that there's something wrong with the property. Why hasn't it sold and why are they lowering the price? So therefore they think that they can get a good deal on it. That as you were just saying, their feelings are telling them something is going on with this property and they may be able to swoop in and steal it away from whoever is selling it. But really what it is is just a. Maybe a bad pricing strategy gone wrong. [00:03:34] Speaker A: Yeah. People say what's wrong with this house? It's been there forever. Right. [00:03:39] Speaker B: It often and I mean you can say that maybe the listing agent and the seller had didn't know what they're doing or they did it wrong. But sometimes you can't really tell what is going to stigmatize as far as pricing is concerned. Or someone may come into an area that they don't know that X kind of strategy works and they use Y strategy and then find out that that doesn't work and then, you know, have to deal with the consequences of using the wrong strategy. And then people think it's stigmatized when in fact it is being unfairly judged as per the Collins dictionary. So you just asked me to talk about pricing and listing stigmas. I'm going to stop you right there. You have a couple more here that I think are actually more interesting to listen to someone talk about. [00:04:18] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:04:18] Speaker B: The pricing and listing stigmas are very interesting for someone who's out trying to purchase a home right now or try to sell a home. But I think the general public is interesting in the. Interested in the other two stigmas. Like to. [00:04:30] Speaker A: Yeah, so I'm just going to touch on those types of stigmas and then we'll have you cover the pricing and listing strategy stigmas and then we'll get right into the juicy ones. How does that sound? [00:04:38] Speaker B: Sure. [00:04:39] Speaker A: Perfect. So you're in charge. I know. So of course the pricing and listing stigmas Cheryl's going to touch on, then we're going to get into the juicy. The criminal Tragic histories. They could be murders, suicides, criminal activity, haunted houses, infamous former owners, scandals, notorious figures. And then we have what we call the paranormal claims, the haunted house effect. So we're going to talk about all of that, but we're going to go to number one when pricing and strategy can hurt a home's reputation. So why do some homes become stigmatized just from bad pricing strategies, Cheryl, if they're priced wrong? [00:05:15] Speaker B: Okay, so I think that you have an anecdote, an example here. Do you want to talk about the example or do you want me to give you just an overview? [00:05:24] Speaker A: Why don't I talk about that really quickly? Let's say that a Toronto home was originally listed for the good old 999. You see a lot of properties out there priced under a million with an offer date. It's called the holding offer strategy. [00:05:36] Speaker B: So if I see a 999 property, my assumption, let's just pretend I didn't look at the actual property, but I know it's holding offers. I'm thinking it's probably going to sell for anywhere from 1:1 to 1:5, depending on what the property looks like, what area it's in, who's listing it. [00:05:51] Speaker A: Absolutely. So let's say it didn't sell on its offer night. They relisted it the next day for. [00:05:57] Speaker B: 1 3, which isn't unusual. We see this all the time where the plan A of holding offers doesn't work and then plan B is the offers any time of pricing it closer to perceived market value. [00:06:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:08] Speaker B: And that is kind of the price you're looking for, right? [00:06:11] Speaker A: Yeah. And then let's say it didn't sell even at that 13 for a long period of time, it terminates. And then we see it listed later for say 15 or 1 6. [00:06:21] Speaker B: What? Now I'm just confused. [00:06:23] Speaker A: Exactly. And that's the thing. A lot of times buyers will lose trust. They'll assume something was wrong with the property when in fact the seller and the agent could possibly was they're indecisive, they're inexperienced and. Or they had really unrealistic expectations. Right. [00:06:37] Speaker B: Probably unrealistic expectations. Here is what I would want to do. And this has nothing to do with stigma. This is of course going to stigmatize a property. But I'd want to call those agents and be like, what the heck are you doing? [00:06:47] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:06:48] Speaker B: Because that doesn't make sense. I'm assuming in this situation that the 999 holding offers price, that 1:3 that they were looking for was probably realistic or maybe it was like 125 and they priced just a little too high and maybe the market was a little slow, so they ended up sitting on the market for a while. But to then all of a sudden go to 1.5 or 1.6 seems unrealistic compared to either that holding offers 999 or that 1 3. So now I, the buyer's realtor, or just a realtor in general, am confused. [00:07:21] Speaker A: I'm confused as well. [00:07:22] Speaker B: You know another way you can stigmatize a property? Leaving it at 999 when you want 1 6. [00:07:27] Speaker A: Yes. And we've seen that happen a lot. It's. We have to call up these agents and say, well, what's the deal here? What are your expectations? Why don't you just listing at that price? [00:07:35] Speaker B: But because of that, they end up sitting on the market for a lot longer. Right. Because they're waiting for that one person who's willing to offer so so much more even though it's offers any time. This is going to probably be a little bit confusing to anyone listening to us right now if they haven't seen any of our holding offers, videos or listen to our podcast about this strategy. But the takeaway in your story is it's priced wrong. In this case, priced probably way too high or above perceived market value. [00:08:01] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:08:02] Speaker B: So there are many other properties listed in that price range that are for sale that you know, the buyer is looking at. So they're overlooking this one, that's one six. So therefore sitting on the market for longer. So say the average in this area in particular is 10 days on market. Say it sat on the market for 60 days. Of course people are going to be like, there's something wrong with that. Yeah, it should be selling in 10 days. Like everything else. [00:08:24] Speaker A: It might be a great house. It's just well overpriced. And people like, what's wrong with the house? You know, nothing's wrong with the house other than the fact that it's overpriced. And so it's needlessly stigmatized because they overpriced it. They look at the days on market in a hot area that sells very quickly and of course it's like, well, what's wrong with it? [00:08:41] Speaker B: I think we will tell both buyers and tenants this as well. If something has been sitting on the market for a long time, let us take a look at it, because there might not be something wrong with it. It just might be priced wrong. Or in the case of a tenant, it might be that the landlord is Looking for someone really specifically already turned down offers. [00:08:58] Speaker A: Totally. It's funny, sometimes we see houses that have been on and off the markets so often with like three or four different agents and they just won't sell. It becomes like an old friend. [00:09:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:09:08] Speaker A: It's like, oh, there's that property again. 1, 2, 3, main. Who's the agent this time? What pricing strategy? [00:09:13] Speaker B: I think the buyers think that way. They're like, oh, I've seen this one. If they have a search set up and they're waiting for something specific, it keeps coming up. They're like, oh, I've seen this one. So they're not even going to pay attention. Right. Even at any different price. Yeah, I've seen this one already. I've seen this one already. [00:09:25] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. It's funny, at some point a home's reputation just gets shot. [00:09:28] Speaker B: Yeah. It's unfortunate. It happens all the time. We see it all the time where, you know, sometimes you have to give it a year rest, bring it out to a completely new buyer pool at a different price a year later. [00:09:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:09:39] Speaker B: So because it gets stigmatized in that moment. So that is one type of stigmatization that I would think that Collins definition really does highlight that it's unfairly regarded as being bad. It's not bad, it's just badly priced. [00:09:53] Speaker A: And we, we have a lot of listing presentations where we explain to our potential sellers or our seller clients saying, you know, we're going to try the holding offer strategy and it is plan A. And sometimes you may not get the result that you're looking for and we may think that it might need a little bit longer marketing, period. The right buyer wasn't out there. And so the, the, the off night will come and go. If we don't get offers, we want to work or don't get an offer, then we will sometimes list it again at an offers anytime price. [00:10:23] Speaker B: Yeah. So you're highlighting what we just said. [00:10:25] Speaker A: Yes. [00:10:25] Speaker B: Not abnormal. [00:10:26] Speaker A: No, it's not abnormal. Here's the thing. So it does happen quite often. The sellers will say, well, doesn't that stigmatize the property? [00:10:32] Speaker B: Yes. [00:10:32] Speaker A: So we get that question a lot. And it doesn't have to. It's obviously not the ideal situation. It's good that better that you would sell on your offer night. However, if you do not, and we've seen this happen many times, it'll then get relisted and sometimes that takes another week or somebody's just waiting around, didn't want to get into competition and the property may sell very quickly. However, when you relist the property, it has to be at a realistic price, near market value. [00:10:56] Speaker B: Yeah. So that's why I'm saying this. 15, 16 is unrealistic. Maybe that realistic price is 12 or 1 2, 5. And they almost had it right the first time. [00:11:06] Speaker A: It goes to show how important pricing and your strategy actually is. [00:11:10] Speaker B: And we have this conversation with our buyers and our sellers all the time. The smallest little amount can really change perception. So it's really, really important that you strategize. You strategize the temperature of the market, the timing of the market, the type of house, the type of strategy for pricing. It's way more complicated than just looking at a property and a price and knowing what's going on. [00:11:34] Speaker A: Totally. [00:11:34] Speaker B: All right, so, you know, easy stigmatization because it's been on the market for too long. If it's been on the market too long, it's probably because of price. Even if it's not a good house, it's most likely because it's priced like it is a better house than it is. Yeah, right. [00:11:46] Speaker A: Okay. You can't help if it's a dump or. [00:11:49] Speaker B: Like, we see this a lot. A bad flip, right? Like, somebody's gone in and made cosmetic changes, but hasn't changed the big, expensive items and then prices it. Like, they did change the big. [00:11:58] Speaker A: And so people walk in and go, like, oh, it's not what I'm. [00:12:00] Speaker B: Well, they realize right away that those big, expensive items still need to be done. Therefore, it doesn't speak to the price that it's at. [00:12:06] Speaker A: All right, cool. So that kind of covers how you can stigmatize a property that might be an okay property, that you just use the wrong pricing strategy, overprice, et cetera, et cetera. Let's get to the fun stuff now. Now, folks. Are you ready, Cheryl? [00:12:17] Speaker B: Sure. I like fun. [00:12:19] Speaker A: So we're gonna talk about five different notorious stigmatized properties, and we're gonna start with probably the most famous, I think, anyway, I've been following in your opinion ever since I was a kid, though. I was into, like, horror, and I read a lot of Stephen King books, and I picked up a book called the Amityville Horror, and I read the book before I saw the movie and. [00:12:43] Speaker B: Wow, how the heck old were you. [00:12:45] Speaker A: When you read the book? My parents let me read a lot of horror stuff when I was very young, so. And that's the famous house that was actually in Amityville, New York. And let's get over here to tell you just a little bit More about it. [00:12:56] Speaker B: You have those notes, right? [00:12:57] Speaker A: Oh, no, I. Oh, you have them as well. [00:12:59] Speaker B: I don't know why you gave me these. [00:13:01] Speaker A: It was at 112 Ocean Avenue in Amityville, Long Island, New York. And it's kind of. It was known as America's most haunted house. So let's talk about why. What happened there? Cheryl, do you want to tell us what happened there? [00:13:12] Speaker B: It happened. [00:13:13] Speaker A: It happened four days after I was born. Four days after Cheryl was born. [00:13:19] Speaker B: So 23 year old Ronald Butch DeFeo Jr. Murdered six family members, parents and all four of his siblings. Did he have other siblings? [00:13:27] Speaker A: Yes, four of them. [00:13:27] Speaker B: Okay. In their sleep with a rifle. So he shot them. He later claimed he heard voices telling him to do it. So mental health issues. Convicted of six counts of second degree murder. And now I don't know who because I don't remember watching the Emmy horror, the original one, because I was too young. But I do remember watching the one with Ryan Reynolds where Ryan Reynolds plays the killer. [00:13:47] Speaker A: Yeah, he was. No, he didn't play the killer. He played the father. [00:13:50] Speaker B: See, that's how much I paid attention. [00:13:52] Speaker A: So for those of you that are maybe a little bit younger, you might be more. Yes. No, Cheryl, he played George Lutz. So let me go to the next part where the horror begins. [00:14:01] Speaker B: Okay, sorry, sorry. I should have watched the movie before this. [00:14:05] Speaker A: I know, right? So in December of 1975. So about a year later. [00:14:09] Speaker B: All right. [00:14:10] Speaker A: George and Kathy Lutz bought the house. They got it for a steal. It was $80,000 for a large Dutch colonial with a boat house. They lasted 28 days. [00:14:19] Speaker B: Did they know when they bought it that had had been. [00:14:22] Speaker A: They. They knew. They knew that something had happened. [00:14:24] Speaker B: But in the news. [00:14:26] Speaker A: Of course. Of course it was in the news. So they lasted 28 days before fleeing, claiming that they saw slime oozing from the walls. There was cold spots, phantom voices, a demonic pig with glowing red eyes. [00:14:39] Speaker B: Okay. [00:14:40] Speaker A: So George woke up at 3:15am every single night there. And that was the exact time of the murders taking place. They claimed that there was levitation, possession. And this experience became the basis for the 1977 book the Amityville Horror and multiple film adaptations. So it spawned over a dozen films, starting with the Amityville Horror in 1979. And it's inspired documentaries, spoofs, horror legend, and it continues to be referenced in pop horror culture and paranormal. [00:15:10] Speaker B: So obviously this house is stigmatized. Yes, it does. It still exists because often, and I'm sure you have this in your notes somewhere, a Stigmatized house is torn down, Demolished. Yeah. [00:15:20] Speaker A: So this one does still exist. It's. The address has since been changed from 112 to 108 Ocean Avenue. You see that happening a lot? Yes, yes, they legally changed the address. And a lot of times that's to detour tourists and try to get rid of a bit of the stigma. [00:15:37] Speaker B: I just said many times stigmatized homes are torn down, but let me just correct that. Stigmatized price homes don't get torn down. Just one. Stigmatized by murders. [00:15:48] Speaker A: Usually, yeah. Oh, it's been on the market for quite some time. They held offers. It's been through four listing agents. Nothing happened to it. But yeah, burn it down. So let's the real estate history. Multiple owners have lived there without reporting any paranormal activity. [00:16:04] Speaker B: Oh, okay, that's interesting. So maybe this. This family that bought it was also crazy. [00:16:08] Speaker A: Well, you know what they say. Was it an elaborate hoax for like, book film money? Did they really experience it? [00:16:16] Speaker B: That's also something you have to consider. [00:16:17] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, for sure. And you know what the. I. I think that they did know, if I'm not mistaken. But in the United States, in many of states, you do not need. [00:16:27] Speaker B: In New York, you say you do not require disclosures, so. [00:16:30] Speaker A: But this. I'm going to talk about this. Well, let's talk about it now. [00:16:33] Speaker B: I want to know what this Ghostbusters ruling is. And it was done after the movie, so it's obviously named after the Ghostbusters. [00:16:39] Speaker A: So it says here that New York law does not require disclosure of stigmas like murders or hauntings unless asked. All right, so this is if you're a buyer agent or you're a buyer looking at a property should do a little bit of due diligence. Google the address. Maybe if you don't, you might not find out that you're not thinking. [00:16:55] Speaker B: Any house you're looking at is never know. [00:16:57] Speaker A: A lot of people are. [00:16:58] Speaker B: I would think in this kind of a situation, everyone would know. Wasn't there was a TV show with Naomi Watts that was. Everyone was crazy over that was something similar where the house was a murder. Anyways, I'm gonna get off track on that, but carry on. [00:17:11] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah. Where was I? So the last reported sale was in 2017 for 605,000. And it's to note that is well below the neighborhood average. Okay, so for waterfront homes. [00:17:21] Speaker B: So you do get a deal for buying a scary home, you can. [00:17:25] Speaker A: Yeah. So this Ghostbuster ruling, the New York courts have sometimes sided with the buyers. If sellers knowingly conceal the Haunting, I mean publicly promoted a home as such. So I wanted, I want to tell you don't do the right thing. As a listing agent, if you're asked, you should disclose. You and I are of the mindset, disclose, disclose, disclose. But if there are some agents out there that are, you know, trying to sweep it under the rug and you get caught, then even if it's not, if you're not legally binded to disclose, if someone asks, then you should do the, do the right thing. [00:17:53] Speaker B: And if they find out that you were concealing it, you could be in trouble. [00:17:56] Speaker A: Right. [00:17:57] Speaker B: All right, I see that on the back of this form you have some fun facts. [00:18:01] Speaker A: Yes. So the famous eye windows at the top gables, they were removed in renovations. [00:18:07] Speaker B: Was this like a, like the barn. [00:18:09] Speaker A: Style house and then it had the two eyes. People to this day, if they see a house that has the windows up at the gables, it looks like a like look makes it look human. Human. [00:18:18] Speaker B: Like if anyone's watching YouTube, you'll see this picture I drew. Yeah. [00:18:23] Speaker A: So the house still draws thrill seekers and ghost hunters despite being a private residence. And the Defeo murders remains one of the most chilling family homicides in American history. [00:18:33] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't know. There's been a lot. [00:18:36] Speaker A: There has. So number two, this is the Los Feliz murder house in Los Angeles. [00:18:43] Speaker B: This American horror story house. [00:18:45] Speaker A: This is cool. So this is a case that's become one of the most well known examples of psychologically stigmatized properties in the United States. It's 2475 Glendower Place in Los Angeles. It's known as the Haunted house on the Hill. The Los Feliz murder house. [00:19:00] Speaker B: But not of Hill House. [00:19:02] Speaker A: No, it's not. So what happens? December 6, 1959, Dr. Harold Perelson, a respected physician, murdered his wife Lillian by bludgeoning her with a ball peen hammer while she slept. He then attempted to murder his 18 year old daughter Judy, but she escaped and he then took his own life by ingesting pills. [00:19:23] Speaker B: Again, mental health. Can I ask what is a psychologically stigmatized property and is the Amityville house psychologically stigmatized? [00:19:32] Speaker A: I think, I think so. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. [00:19:33] Speaker B: Okay. [00:19:34] Speaker A: So why don't you read up on the aftermath and the stigma show? [00:19:37] Speaker B: I'll read up, yeah. The house remained frozen in time for decades. So that basically means like nobody would go in there. I guess the police would have done their thing. I would imagine. Furniture, Christmas presents, books, everything was left behind by Judy. Only for nearly 50 years it sat vacant and decaying fueling rumors of hauntings and paranormal activity. So again, not based on fact. Locals claim to see flickering lights, eerie shadows, and voices from inside the house. Were they high or drunk? That's what I want to know. It became a hot spot for ghost hunters and urban explorers. And do we know. Has there been any. You know, how, like the. The haunted house people that do, like all the reality shows, have any of them done anything? [00:20:20] Speaker A: I didn't do that much research on. [00:20:22] Speaker B: The home show, but I would imagine if it had. If it wasn't. But if it sat vacant for 50 years, a good chance that they weren't allowed in there. [00:20:28] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, totally. So it. It was never officially listed on the open. Is on the open market for decades. It was inherited by the Perelson children, but it was later sold privately. In 2016, it was purchased by Lisa Bloom, the celebrity attorney and daughter of Gloria Allred for a reported 2.3 million. Despite its horrific past, do we know. [00:20:51] Speaker B: What she did with it? [00:20:52] Speaker A: We do not. Yeah. [00:20:53] Speaker B: Live there. [00:20:54] Speaker A: Yeah. So looking at legal and disclosure in California, deaths must be disclosed if they occurred within three years. [00:21:02] Speaker B: Only three years. Okay. But again, this would have been a well known fact. [00:21:06] Speaker A: Yeah. However, buyers can ask and if the seller knows about the prior desks, even older ones, they are required to answer correctly. [00:21:12] Speaker B: And this is specific for California. [00:21:14] Speaker A: Yeah, but this is, I think, for a lot of places. [00:21:17] Speaker B: Well, you also would think do the right thing. [00:21:19] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:21:20] Speaker B: Tell somebody. [00:21:20] Speaker A: And there are some cases where if you knew and did not disclose, you could be left open for recourse. You know, it could be litigious. So this would likely be considered a psychological stigma, not a material defect. [00:21:34] Speaker B: Right. [00:21:34] Speaker A: But it would definitely affect buyer perception and value, just like with all of these. So, Cheryl, would you live in a home where a murder suicide occurred? [00:21:43] Speaker B: Huh. I don't know. It depends on. I mean, like, when did it happen? What does the house look like? How much does it cost? Is it a deal? [00:21:55] Speaker A: Sure, sure. [00:21:55] Speaker B: I mean, it depends also, like, how. How is it something that was in the news as well? Because obviously then you're going to have people. Like you were saying with the Amityville house. They changed the. One of the reasons why they changed the address was to stop people from coming from coming back. [00:22:11] Speaker A: Because. Yeah. If you lived in a house that everyone's coming by, trying to take photos all the time. Yeah. At the Goonies house. And you and I have been to the Goonies house and there's basically a. [00:22:20] Speaker B: Middle finger on the front. [00:22:20] Speaker A: Yeah. In Oregon. [00:22:23] Speaker B: I mean, we have. This is Something I've thought about because in our family we had something where a family member did commit suicide in the house and the house did sold. And I wonder many, many times, like what they disclosed and what that person was thinking when they purchased. So I've definitely thought about it. I think it depends. Probably not. But I also know because we've had this conversation with our buyer clients many times. There are some people who don't care at all. [00:22:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:51] Speaker B: And do view it like I can get a deal. And there are some people who care a lot and would never even consider it. So, I mean, it's a personality driven thing. [00:23:00] Speaker A: I think if I walked into the house, I'd want to, you know, see if I got the heebie jeebies or not. [00:23:04] Speaker B: Like, because you have such an empath soul. [00:23:07] Speaker A: Yeah. I walk in, I'll be like, no. [00:23:10] Speaker B: There'S a ghost who lives here. [00:23:11] Speaker A: Or no, this place is fine. [00:23:13] Speaker B: But then, you know what? [00:23:13] Speaker A: Check out the pool. [00:23:15] Speaker B: I would almost want to because the stuff about ghost stuff freaks me out. And I'd almost want to like sleep there for a year because I don't want to be woken up in the middle of the night by feeling like some cold shiver, you know, like, I don't want that. [00:23:27] Speaker A: Unfortunately, it's not like the mattress that we just bought. You can't test it out for a year just to see what it's like. [00:23:32] Speaker B: We can't test our mattress out for a year either, by the way. [00:23:35] Speaker A: I thought you could. How long is it? [00:23:36] Speaker B: Three months. [00:23:37] Speaker A: Okay. [00:23:37] Speaker B: Anyway. [00:23:38] Speaker A: Well, three months in a home should give you enough time. Right. [00:23:41] Speaker B: Should properties like this be. Be rebranded or demolished altogether? And so we've already talked about this where some have been demolished, but I feel like there are always going to be people who want to purchase a home because of that infamy. And there may be a way for them to, you know, make money off of it, somehow market it. [00:24:01] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:24:01] Speaker B: To their benefit or keep it as a museum or, you know, something weird like that. [00:24:06] Speaker A: You can make money off it, monetize it. [00:24:09] Speaker B: So I think the demolished thing again will depend on what it is, what that stigmatization is and how long ago it was, and then also what that buyer wants to do with it. It's up to them at the end of the day. Right. Like, I would. I know you're going to get into the Paul Bernardo house, but I feel like that maybe, like for me, just because it hits close to home, I feel like maybe you should just demolish it. [00:24:33] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Well, we will get into that. We're gonna. Let's. Let's do one last fun fact about the Las Feliz Murder House. [00:24:39] Speaker B: Okay. [00:24:39] Speaker A: It was the house that inspired episodes. [00:24:41] Speaker B: Of American Horror Story the first season. [00:24:43] Speaker A: Yeah. Was it the first season? [00:24:45] Speaker B: Well, I imagine. [00:24:46] Speaker A: Oh, yes, it absolutely was. Yeah. And which was, I thought the best. The best Murder House. Exactly. It was just called American Horror Story. [00:24:53] Speaker B: Murder House was season one. Each season has its own name. [00:24:56] Speaker A: Did it? Okay. Interesting. [00:24:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:24:57] Speaker A: Because I know we've watched every. Here's my memory. [00:24:59] Speaker B: Oh, you haven't. I have. [00:25:00] Speaker A: Oh. The most recent one. [00:25:02] Speaker B: The most most recent two. [00:25:03] Speaker A: Okay. Anyway, so let's move on to the third one. It's the last one in the United States. And then we've got two Canadian examples. And the third one that I have Here is the JonBenet Ramsey House. [00:25:15] Speaker B: Can I just stop you before you get into this? We were talking about. Because I think JonBenet Ramsey House falls into this category very strongly where people are curious, so they go by to see the house. It's almost like a tourist attraction. And I just saw an article about the house that was in Breaking Bad. The house sets in Home Alone and also Carrie's place in Sex in the City and how the owners are over it. So to the point of the Goonies house. So, you know, erecting fences, putting signs, not allowing people on the property because there are so many tourists coming to see it. So I feel like that is a whole other problem and helps to stigmatize the property even more. [00:25:54] Speaker A: No one would want to live there just because it would affect your client enjoyment. [00:25:57] Speaker B: Yep. [00:25:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:25:58] Speaker B: So back to the John. Bon. [00:26:00] Speaker A: Back to the John. So it's one of the most infamous and media saturated stigmatized properties in the United States right now. It's not haunted per se. [00:26:07] Speaker B: No. [00:26:07] Speaker A: But the tragic story and the. The fact that it's an unsolved mystery surrounding it, it's cemented its place in real estate and true crimes lore. So this is 749 15th street in Boulder, Colorado. And if you don't know what happened in 1996, six year old John Bunny Ramsey was a child beauty pageant star was reported that morning. Her body was found hours later in the basement of the family home. The cause of death was strangulation and blunt force trauma. [00:26:36] Speaker B: Terrible. [00:26:37] Speaker A: A ransom note was also found. It was bizarre, both in tone and content. And the fact that the paper that was used was from inside the home as well. [00:26:51] Speaker B: The paper and the pen? [00:26:52] Speaker A: Yeah, paper and the pen. [00:26:53] Speaker B: So one of our friends, he works in the Film industry. And they're working on a, I guess, documentary of sort on it right now. And he said they've just come into some new information. So. That's interesting. [00:27:04] Speaker A: Yes, that is interesting. We heard. [00:27:05] Speaker B: Can we also say the JonBenet Ramsey house is one of the most media saturated, stigmatized houses? I feel like the Menendez brothers house as well may qualify. [00:27:16] Speaker A: We just don't have enough time for all of that. [00:27:18] Speaker B: We could do just an episode on these properties. [00:27:21] Speaker A: Exactly. So the case became a huge media circus. It was one of the most covered crime stories of the 90s. The Ramsey family faced intense scrutiny. The house itself became a symbol of the mystery. Reporters and tourists constantly driving by, taking photos and speculating. It was originally built in 1927. It's over 7,000 square feet, and it sits in an upscale Boulder neighborhood. The Ramsey family moved out in 1998, two years after the murder. [00:27:49] Speaker B: Two years there. [00:27:50] Speaker A: Yeah. It's since been sold multiple times, but often at a discount. [00:27:54] Speaker B: Okay. [00:27:54] Speaker A: Due to its dark past, in 2001, a buyer legally changed the address from 755 to 749. So again, a change of address, probably. [00:28:04] Speaker B: Because people were coming and checking out the house. [00:28:06] Speaker A: Yeah. They wanted to shake the association. And the most recent public record shows the house was listed around 2.3 million in 2014. But it's been very tough to sell. [00:28:15] Speaker B: Maybe it's overpriced. [00:28:16] Speaker A: There we go. So maybe it's stigmatized due to both ways. Exactly. So Colorado law does not require disclosure. [00:28:24] Speaker B: Interesting. [00:28:25] Speaker A: Um, but again, if directly asked, sellers and agents must disclose honesty. Sorry. Honestly. And. Yeah, so I think that's about it for that one. Did you think, you know, a lot of times people would potentially renovate, change the facade, change the address? Do you think you could ever truly renovate out a tragedy or renovate out a stigmatization? [00:28:45] Speaker B: Okay, so if, say, I was moving to Colorado and I knew nothing of the JonBenet Ramsey case, I don't know how that would be possible. But say it's a different house, where it's a. A smaller level crime that only got coverage in the local news. I'm moving into this neighborhood. I don't care. I'll change it. I have no connection to it because I didn't really look into it. Maybe it doesn't matter. But if it's somebody who understands what happened or somebody lives in the neighborhood, I don't think a renovation does change it. [00:29:12] Speaker A: No. [00:29:12] Speaker B: At all. [00:29:13] Speaker A: It has been significantly renovated on the inside, I would imagine, including changing the Basement, which is where she was found. So it's. [00:29:19] Speaker B: It's freaking sad. [00:29:20] Speaker A: So sad. Yeah. It really is a tragedy. [00:29:23] Speaker B: Like, it really does. And I'm sure everyone listening has probably got it in their own head, like, how do you every day know that that house, that some little girl was murdered in it? [00:29:32] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't think I could move into that one, Cheryl. [00:29:34] Speaker B: And that's why I said it's specific. Right. Like, something that is. Feels a little too close to home. A ghost story is different. Or something that happened, like, so long ago that it feels like old timey. [00:29:44] Speaker A: Still feels fresh, even though it was, you know, 30. [00:29:47] Speaker B: And it's. It's a. It's a. It's going to be like the Paul Bernardo. [00:29:50] Speaker A: Totally. [00:29:51] Speaker B: Right? [00:29:51] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:29:52] Speaker B: And yeah, documentaries, TV specials, books, podcasts, like, we're still talking about this house in this case. So much fun facts. Yeah. That was the basement being changed. [00:30:01] Speaker A: You bet. [00:30:02] Speaker B: All right, so let's go to the Canadians. [00:30:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:30:06] Speaker B: All right. [00:30:07] Speaker A: Well, famous stigmatized houses. So Paul Bernardo and Kala Hamola's house. Do you want to talk a little bit about that? [00:30:13] Speaker B: Well, so you just gave me all of this paperwork an hour before we started this podcast. I like it that way. So I haven't really. I. I did do a little digging, but I haven't read through everything. So I don't know if you want to talk about it first and then I'll tell you what my digging. [00:30:27] Speaker A: Sure, sure. Well, I know that you went and had a look at what the property looked like. The fact there's still another structure on. [00:30:33] Speaker B: There and it's got a different address now. [00:30:35] Speaker A: It does, yeah. So it was the. The stigmatizing event is, if you don't know, is where Bernardo and Homolka committed a horrific crimes, including the kidnappings and murders of Kristen French and Leslie Mahaffey in the early 1990s. [00:30:47] Speaker B: And this is important to us because we were the same age, you and I both, at the time of this happening of Kristen French and Leslie Mahaffey. You lived close to Kristen French? I lived close to. Or like in. She lived in Durham. Leslie Mahaffey or Scarborough, I should say so. Like, it touched both of our lives. And at the time, lots of people saying, beware, don't, you know, talk to strange people. White van. [00:31:10] Speaker A: This one resonated with both of us. I was going to boarding school in St. Catherine's at the time, and all of this was going on and. And we were the same age, really close. [00:31:19] Speaker B: Kristen French was my age, so. [00:31:22] Speaker A: So that was in the early 1990s, the aftermath, the house became a site of public outrage. People were vandalizing it. They demanded its removal. And in 1995, new owners had it demolished to erase its dark history. The land was later developed and a new house was built on the site. And you just read up there that a bunch of volunteers, is that right? [00:31:41] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. So more than 50 volunteers took the. Bulldozed the house, and it still had all the contents of, I guess, Paul Bernardo and Carla Homolka. [00:31:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:31:51] Speaker B: In there also. Carla Molka's sister, I think, died in the house. [00:31:55] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:31:56] Speaker B: So it's. [00:31:57] Speaker A: It's terrible. [00:31:57] Speaker B: Gross. [00:31:58] Speaker A: Yeah. So due to the high profile nature of the crimes, the property could never really shake its grim past. It. It would have been, I think, unsellable. [00:32:05] Speaker B: I think so in its present form. So. Yeah. And also because I think less of these stories exist in Canada. [00:32:12] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:32:13] Speaker B: Right. So it. This was shocking when it happened. Not that it's less shocking when any kind of murder happens anywhere, but I feel like just the sheer amount of people and crime that would happen in the US Is going to be a little less. Once you hear something, you get a little bit. What's that? We're desensit. Desensitized to the news. So. Yeah, brutal. Anyways, what's the next one? [00:32:37] Speaker A: Isn't this a fun episode? Okay, so our next one is the Sherman family home. [00:32:45] Speaker B: And this is more recent. [00:32:47] Speaker A: This is more recent. [00:32:48] Speaker B: So even the Manson family home we could have talked about. Can I just say something? [00:32:54] Speaker A: Sure. [00:32:54] Speaker B: If you're here on this podcast to learn about stigmatization and how not to stigmatize your house or what you can do buying a stigmatized house, you've come to the right place. But really, the meat of this is turning into fun stories about the most stigmatized houses due to tragic events and murders. [00:33:11] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Okay, so for Barry and Honey Sherman's. [00:33:16] Speaker B: House, it was on the market at the time that they were found. [00:33:21] Speaker A: That's wild. [00:33:22] Speaker B: Yeah. So, speaking of. [00:33:26] Speaker A: So what happened? [00:33:27] Speaker B: What a way to stigmatize a property. Hi. I'm on the market for sale and I was murdered. [00:33:32] Speaker A: Yeah. So tell us what happened, Cheryl. [00:33:35] Speaker B: On December 15, 2017, the bodies of Barry and Honey Sherman were discovered in their home under suspicious circumstances. They were found near their indoor pool, seated and bound in an eerily staged manner. [00:33:51] Speaker A: I know. Initially there was speculation about murder suicide, but investigators later confirmed it was a targeted double homicide. [00:33:59] Speaker B: And wasn't it found that they used the lockbox or something to access the house? [00:34:02] Speaker A: There was a lot of strange things. [00:34:04] Speaker B: I Mean, I feel like obviously if they were targeted it would happened anyways, but it just made it really easy for the murderer. [00:34:12] Speaker A: Especially such a large home with you'd think great security, you know, very well known people. The case remains unsolved. There's multiple theories about potential motives, but there's not been any arrests. So why don't we talk a little bit about the real estate history. [00:34:30] Speaker B: It was on the market for six something because I just looked it up right before I came out here. [00:34:34] Speaker A: Okay. [00:34:35] Speaker B: And then in 2020, August 2020, it. [00:34:38] Speaker A: Sold because they demolished it. Yeah, yeah. [00:34:42] Speaker B: For $4.25 million. The, the lot. [00:34:44] Speaker A: The lot, yeah. [00:34:45] Speaker B: And I mean it's, it's in a very affluent neighborhood, we can say. [00:34:49] Speaker A: Very affluent, yes. [00:34:50] Speaker B: Yeah. In August 2020, the vacant lot was sold for 4.25 million. [00:34:54] Speaker A: Who did it sell to? [00:34:55] Speaker B: To a 28 year old woman who is residing nearby. [00:34:58] Speaker A: That's wild. Yeah, yeah. Just little pocket change. Must, must have been some family money. Right? [00:35:02] Speaker B: I, I, I did look her up. I won't talk about, but. And then afterwards it was listed for sale again in December 2022 under the new address. [00:35:11] Speaker A: Okay. So they changed the address. [00:35:13] Speaker B: So they changed it. And I, you have here that the initial price was 6,998. And I just learned that it sold for $6,200 in December. [00:35:21] Speaker A: So it did sell. Okay. Because I didn't have that most recent, but they did several realistings and price adjustments. They said it was reintroduced to the market in April 2023 at a reduced price of 6.5. And then you said it sold for 6262. Okay. [00:35:36] Speaker B: And here's the thing there, of course this is probably some stigmatization because that's a terrible murder. But they did remove the house. They did demolish the house and we already know that vacant land is a harder sell. So is this, did this take so long because it's vacant land? [00:35:53] Speaker A: Possibly. Sure. You're going to need to be mostly an old cash buyer. [00:35:56] Speaker B: Yeah, I think we'd have to go and do like a pretty deep dive. [00:36:00] Speaker A: Deep dive. We didn't really have time. [00:36:01] Speaker B: There's not a lot of vacant land though that's available for sale in that area. [00:36:05] Speaker A: Right. [00:36:05] Speaker B: So I mean you can look at maybe houses that were more tear downy. [00:36:09] Speaker A: But so in stigmatized to the point where, yeah, they, they tore it down. But I don't think that, you know, I would have issue moving into a new property built on, built on the same address. [00:36:22] Speaker B: Red Pet Cemetery. [00:36:23] Speaker A: Yeah. I guess there's that as well. I've also seen the film Poltergeist where they did the development on top of an old burial. [00:36:30] Speaker B: See two Stephen King books telling us, do not buy the house built on top of something bad. [00:36:35] Speaker A: Yeah, I actually, I don't think Poltergeist was a Stephen King book, but it was a Steven Spielberg film. [00:36:40] Speaker B: I feel like it was based on. I mean, someone's going to tell me that I'm wrong. So. [00:36:43] Speaker A: Yeah, that's okay. We'll have to. To do a follow up. [00:36:46] Speaker B: You're the Stephen King guy. [00:36:47] Speaker A: Yeah. Let's then move on to. I want to talk about another stigmatized property that is right across the alleyway. [00:36:56] Speaker B: Not too far from our house, not. [00:36:57] Speaker A: Too far from us as well. We're going to call it the meth lab house. [00:37:00] Speaker B: There is no actual real name for this house. We're. [00:37:03] Speaker A: We're calling it the meth lab house now. It's not infamous. You know, it did make the news. If you look up the address. I'm going to give the address here. 837 craven. Yeah, we actually showed the property recently and you know, it wasn't a great house, but we started to do a little bit of digging and here's the listing description from 2012 when it was listed for 430,000. Renovated top to bottom, newer kitchen with ceramic and marble countertop. Complete interior has been renovated with newer kitchens, newer paint, and so much more paint. This home was damaged by fire. It was used as a meth lab. It says it has been remediated and all errand structure has been passed. This home shows great and it will not last. [00:37:50] Speaker B: This is unfortunate because now this is a feeling versus facts. So it is stigmatized because it was a meth lab. And I think it had something to do with the police as well. [00:37:58] Speaker A: Right. [00:37:58] Speaker B: Obviously there was an explosion and it still is not, I think, up to the same level of value as the houses around it because of this thing that had happened to it. And I would live in a house like that as long as it's all been remediated. Right. That kind of a stigmatized house. And then of course, you know, you're probably going to get a deal because. Because it was the Metlab house. [00:38:21] Speaker A: That's right. [00:38:22] Speaker B: Oh my God. This home show is great. And it will not last. How long did it take to sell in that time? Did you look? [00:38:27] Speaker A: Oh, it took a long time. Yeah, it did. [00:38:29] Speaker B: This home show is great. And it actually did last for a while. [00:38:32] Speaker A: Yeah. And it did take Quite a while. [00:38:34] Speaker B: Didn't it just sell again? [00:38:35] Speaker A: No. It's funny, when it sold at that point, it sold. Yeah, it sold five months later. It didn't sell. It did. It was a power of sale. [00:38:44] Speaker B: Okay. [00:38:45] Speaker A: So a lot going on. It's. It finally sold recently from when you and I saw it. And it finally sold at the end of 2024. They started trying to sell it in 2022 and it was listed 10 different times. There were seven terminations, three suspended, only one price change. [00:39:06] Speaker B: So they, they were being stubborn on their price. [00:39:08] Speaker A: Yes, very stubborn on their price. [00:39:10] Speaker B: So that also could have stigmatized it. [00:39:12] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:39:12] Speaker B: So all of these things. Yeah, it could be the thing that happened in the house that stigmatized it, but it also could be the strategy and the pricing and all of that could. And maybe it's both. Maybe, maybe I need more information. I'm. I need all the information before I make a educated decision. [00:39:31] Speaker A: Decision and are confidently. Exactly. Confidently be able to share your opinion on it. So that, that. But that's you in a nutshell, Cheryl. For any one of us, any one of our clients that have worked with Cheryl before, before, you understand that she is very meticulous when it comes to the information. We call her Statsy McGee. [00:39:45] Speaker B: No, we don't. You do. [00:39:47] Speaker A: I do, yeah. [00:39:49] Speaker B: But will not stick. [00:39:51] Speaker A: So let's talk very quickly now about what sellers must disclose in Ontario. [00:39:56] Speaker B: Okay, so we're going back to specifically if you're listening to. [00:40:00] Speaker A: We've talked about specific properties now we're now going to talk about what sellers must disclose. It's pretty simple that material defects, they must be disclosed. So if there's structural issues that you know about, mold leaks, things that are not necessarily easily seen with the, the, the latent eye but you know, is going to affect. The property has to be disclosed. With regards to stigmatization, it's not legally required to disclose, unlike some US States and Quebec. You have to disclose in Quebec and I'll talk about a case study there in Quebec once I find that sheet of paper. But it is kind of buyer beware. So buyers and agents should do their own research. You know, Google searching. If somebody finds something on Google or if there's any, you know, things that you think may be amiss and you know, you have a buyer that might be quite sensitive, you could, you could knock on neighbors doors, you can do your own due diligence. [00:40:56] Speaker B: I find that with any houses that have issues and you go to an open house, you will hear the neighbors talking about it. [00:41:02] Speaker A: Right? Yeah. [00:41:03] Speaker B: I'm sure you would, because the neighbors are curious and neighbors would all know and they are willing to share with anyone who will listen. [00:41:10] Speaker A: And the biggest thing that you can do if you're a buyer's agent is ask the listing agent directly because as we said, they are legally bound to, you know, they should answer the questions directly. Well, they should answer them honestly. [00:41:25] Speaker B: Yeah, you would expect. And they could be in trouble if they don't. Just similar to everything else you said where it's not legally required, but if it ended up in court, the fact that you tried to conceal it is a problem. [00:41:34] Speaker A: Yeah. So a seller in Ontario hid the fact that a murder had happened in the home, but the buyers later found out and they sued. And this in this particular case, the lawsuit was dismissed because there was no legal obligation to disclose. [00:41:47] Speaker B: Interesting, interesting. [00:41:48] Speaker A: Do you think Ontario should adopt a law requiring sellers to disclose? Disclose stigmatized properties? [00:41:52] Speaker B: I don't know. It's hard because like we're talking about, sometimes it matters, sometimes it doesn't. If it's a brutal murder, maybe you should disclose. But it probably was also in the news. [00:42:02] Speaker A: It probably was, you know. Yeah. If it wasn't a brutal murder and it was just a. I don't know if there's non brutal murders, but like a suicide. [00:42:10] Speaker B: I think that that is something that some people would be. [00:42:13] Speaker A: Would want to know. Yeah. We sold a property that was an estate sale recently. We were the listing agent. We had a lot of people asking if. If the person had passed away in the home. And they did not. [00:42:22] Speaker B: But it didn't seem like anyone really cared. It was more just like doing my due diligence. [00:42:27] Speaker A: Yes, of course. [00:42:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:42:28] Speaker A: And who knows, maybe some of them did care. Had someone died and passed away in the home. [00:42:33] Speaker B: These are 130 year old homes. [00:42:34] Speaker A: There's probably been lots of people. Exactly, exactly. I want to talk about a case study in Quebec. In the situation, the seller failed to inform the buyer about a murder that had taken place in the house. Upon discovering the information post purchase, the buyer felt deceived and sought legal recourse, arguing that the undisclosed event significantly impacted their perception and enjoyment of the property. And the Quebec court ruled in favor of the buyer. They said that certain events, such as violent crimes occurring on the property could affect the peaceful enjoyment of the home. And they recognized that while such events don't alter the physical condition of the property, they can have a profound psychological impact on the occupant, thereby making non disclosure of such events a material misrepresentation. Interesting. [00:43:20] Speaker B: I think that it again, it goes down to the person because we know people who even want all photos taken down after because they don't, they have privacy issues. And I can imagine that if something like that had happened, like they just wouldn't be accepting of the fact that people know that this terrible thing happened in their house, that they don't want to deal with the fact that something so terrible happened in their house. [00:43:40] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:43:41] Speaker B: And yeah, it would psychologically might mess with somebody. [00:43:45] Speaker A: Totally. Totally. So let's talk about how to sell a stigmatized property. Well, you can demolish it as we've already talked about. You know, obviously fresh paint, new staging. Obviously if the murder happened in the house, you want to do a full clean, all those sorts of things. Well, of course you'd want to. And I want to actually talk about how some cases, house blessers are actually brought into properties. [00:44:14] Speaker B: I think some people again would care, some wouldn't. [00:44:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:44:17] Speaker B: You say transparency like I think that is such a big thing. [00:44:21] Speaker A: Yes. [00:44:21] Speaker B: Be honest. [00:44:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:44:22] Speaker B: Beyond. And it buyers who want to deal. [00:44:25] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Some people be like, oh, you know what, you know, you can expect that maybe especially if there is a high profile event or if somebody's going to be like driving by and wanting to look at it as a tourist attraction, then that's going to come at a discount. [00:44:40] Speaker B: What about an investor? I just want to buy a house. Like the one around the corner. [00:44:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:44:44] Speaker B: That I can rent it out probably. Really? Well, the renter is not going to ask. [00:44:48] Speaker A: Nope, probably not. Exactly. And they may get a better price on it, which is going to make it a better investment. [00:44:53] Speaker B: It's such a case by case basis. [00:44:55] Speaker A: Yeah. So I want to tell you, I want to tell you some sellers, they'll hire house blessers. This is a thing. When a property has a dark history like a death crime or just a bad vibe. Some sellers and buyers turn to house blessers, which are spiritual cleansers or energy workers to lift the sigma. We have a couple of colleagues and, and friends and clients. I think I can think of a few that would be told. This would be right up their alley. Yeah. [00:45:22] Speaker B: Even if I didn't have even there was something stigmatized. [00:45:25] Speaker A: Yeah. They might just want to have something if they bought a new house. Like let's make sure that it's, it's, it's refreshed good vibe. So who are house blessers? They're individuals. They're often spiritual leaders, energy workers or cultural practitioners brought in to spiritually cleanse or bless a property believed to carry bad energy, trauma or residual energy. I talk about a few of them. There's priests or ministers. If it's someone that's a Christian, wants the house blessed. [00:45:49] Speaker B: Exorcism. [00:45:50] Speaker A: Yeah. Feng shui experts to rebalance the energy or the chi. Indigenous elders, they use something called smudging rituals. Rituals and shamans, mediums for paranormal, ghost related issues. And reiki practitioners or healers to cleanse the energy fields. Obviously when we, we've seen the exorcist before, when they have a Christian house blessing, they'll be a Catholic or Christian priest. They'll do prayers, holy water sprinkling. Often used when there's been a death or fear of an evil presence. The smudging. [00:46:23] Speaker B: But I thought that they attached to the person. Actually I think they can attach. [00:46:27] Speaker A: Attach to properties as well. [00:46:28] Speaker B: Watch a lot of these movies. [00:46:29] Speaker A: Exactly. So with smudging it, it uses burning sage, sweet grass or cedar. The smoke is fanned into corners and closets to cleanse the spiritual energy. This is common in first nations as well as New age spirituality. Smoke off the space to reset the energy. And you know what, there's a lot of designers for this next one that implement this. The feng shui. Yeah. Space clearing. They may identify dead zones or energy blockages. They'll use bells, essential oils, salts, mirrors, and they'll adjust furniture colors and layout to rebalance the chi. [00:47:05] Speaker B: Talking about feng shui and stigmatization, we know people who believe in feng shui who won't buy the house at the end of a street. [00:47:12] Speaker A: Yeah, at the end. Well, actually if it's a T. Yeah. [00:47:15] Speaker B: It's the end of that street. [00:47:16] Speaker A: Exactly. And they say that the, the energy, she flows right into the house. Flows out. Yeah, yeah. [00:47:22] Speaker B: So I mean that's a stigmatization for a specific kind of person. [00:47:26] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:47:26] Speaker B: Or you know, lucky numbers. [00:47:28] Speaker A: Oh, totally. Yeah. Like it's, it's almost like superstition in that case. Right. [00:47:32] Speaker B: I wouldn't say it somewhat stigmatizes in certain cultures or areas. Let's say if there's a certain culture that doesn't like a certain number and there are shop. There are many that shopping in that area. [00:47:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:47:45] Speaker B: Why we don't have, you know, the 13th floor in some buildings. [00:47:48] Speaker A: Right? Yeah, right. Yeah, absolutely. Or on cruise ships, I mean, we. [00:47:51] Speaker B: Have the 13th floor. It's just called 14. [00:47:53] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. They just skip it. And it's actually still the 13th floor. But so with Buddhist or Shinto ceremonies, Japanese buyers may request the Ginshin Sai ceremony. I hope I said that right. Before building or moving in. And it involves offerings to land spirits, prayers and ceremonial tools. And there's been a couple of anecdotes where one agent in Vancouver said that after a smudging, a home that sat for three months sold within a week. Some clients won't even step inside a previously stigmatized home unless a ritual has been performed. And do you think bringing in a house blesser before listing a home that has bad energy. [00:48:32] Speaker B: I'm a very fax facing person. Right. So I don't think that. But we do a lucky dance in all of our listings, so is that not the same? [00:48:41] Speaker A: Yeah, it's. Is it superstitious? I think it's bad luck to be superstitious. [00:48:46] Speaker B: Don't, silly. Okay. I personally wouldn't. But I wouldn't judge somebody who wants to. [00:48:51] Speaker A: Yeah, no, of course. [00:48:52] Speaker B: If, like, if our seller was like, we need to do this, totally, we. [00:48:55] Speaker A: Go along with it. [00:48:56] Speaker B: I mean, it's one of those things, like if it can help, it can't hurt. [00:48:59] Speaker A: Yeah. When it's. It's like the placebo effect. Right. Like it may not be, but if so long as the result works out. [00:49:07] Speaker B: Breeds positivity as well. [00:49:08] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:49:09] Speaker B: It's all good. [00:49:10] Speaker A: So don't mock it. If it helps, it helps. And if I don't think it can. [00:49:13] Speaker B: Hurt, who is mocking it? [00:49:14] Speaker A: Yeah, well, a lot of people might. And I know a lot of people do. [00:49:18] Speaker B: Who? [00:49:18] Speaker A: Those people. Those people that aren't into the spiritual stuff. Yeah, exactly. So would you buy a house then if a priest or a psychic gave it the all clear? [00:49:29] Speaker B: Sure, sure. Why wouldn't I? Like I just said, it can't hurt it. [00:49:33] Speaker A: Yeah, but I don't think it would be dependent on that for you. No, of course. [00:49:35] Speaker B: Not at all. If they're gonna go in there and add a ghost, that'd be a problem. [00:49:42] Speaker A: Yeah, Yeah. I don't know if you can curse me. Bring in someone to curse a property. [00:49:47] Speaker B: Yeah, right. [00:49:47] Speaker A: No, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Well, I hope you've had fun. [00:49:52] Speaker B: No, this has been awful. I thought you were asking me, have you had fun? [00:49:56] Speaker A: It's been awful. Why? [00:49:56] Speaker B: Cheryl, you made me have a shower. [00:49:59] Speaker A: I know. So I hope you've had fun listening. We're gonna give you some final thoughts, maybe some takeaways. Hold on. [00:50:05] Speaker B: Does this mean we're done wrapping it? [00:50:07] Speaker A: Yeah, we're wrapping it up, Cheryl. We are. You know, stigmatized properties aren't always deal breakers. It's all about perception. Right. So I think that sellers, you need to be strategic with pricing and marketing more than anything else. And that's for properties that maybe didn't have a murder in it, but you don't want to have just stigmatized by pricing. Wrong overpricing, multiple listing strategies. I think you really need to have a lot of good information, guidance, advice and have a clear idea of where market value lies for a property. [00:50:37] Speaker B: At the end of the day, it's a. Everything is a case by case basis. And you just said it. Perception. Because perception is reality and you have to be aware of that in every step that you take when you're strategizing. [00:50:48] Speaker A: Yeah. For buyers, if this is something that is very important to you, that a property be not stigmatized in any way, let your. Let your buyer agent know, do some due diligence, ask some questions if possible. [00:51:03] Speaker B: You said not be stigmatized in any way. I don't think that is the correct you. I think you specifically are thinking about, like, murders. [00:51:11] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, those things. [00:51:13] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:51:13] Speaker A: Not with regards to the price. I'm talking about homes that maybe had some infamous events happen in them. If that's going to be a deal breaker for you, then, you know, we'll do some due diligence. Obviously, Google the property address, you might find something. Or Google things that have happened in the neighborhood in the case they've changed the address. [00:51:31] Speaker B: Oh, this is getting complicated. It's almost like you need to hire a private investigator now. [00:51:36] Speaker A: Yeah. For stigmatized properties. Yeah. I think that just doing a quick Google search should be sufficient. [00:51:42] Speaker B: Yeah, you're getting really complicated on me right now. [00:51:44] Speaker A: Okay. A little too complicated for you, Cheryl? [00:51:46] Speaker B: Yes. [00:51:46] Speaker A: Okay, let's. Let's make it simple then. Do your research. Negotiate accordingly. Real estate is as much about psychology as it is about location and price. [00:51:56] Speaker B: 80% facts and figures, 20% emotion. [00:51:58] Speaker A: Cheryl says it all the time. And it's true. At the end of the day, real estate is a people business. Perception is everything. So whether it's a house with a bad listing history or one with a darker past, the key is knowing what you're getting into, know all the facts, and potentially even using it to your advantage. [00:52:14] Speaker B: Yep. [00:52:14] Speaker A: Nice. So while we're wrapping it up here, we always like to finish with support local. I recently shot a series of videos for a bunch of local businesses over in Riverside. And there's one in particular that I really liked. It's called Isle of Coffee and it's at 745 Queen Street East. It's a beautiful space. It was repurposed from an old cannabis store. So if you go in there the lines are absolutely spectacular as is the facade of, of the retail store. And I love that. First of all, I love coffee. They do really high level matchas cappuccinos, delicious little snacks as well. But the if you say Isle of Coffee and that's spelled I S L E O F and then coffee, if you say it really fast, it sounds like I love coffee, which is kind of cool. It's actually a spin on a Wes Anderson film called Isle of Dogs. So it's like Isle of Dogs and it's, it's a super cool space. If you get the chance, go and check it out again. It's at 745 Queen Street east in Riverside in Toronto. And on that note, we are going to leave you. Thank you so much for joining us. You can find out all about us and catch all of our other previous podcasts by going to therealestatepodcast Ca. You can also follow us and all of our real estate adventures on all of our socials. That's YouTube, Facebook and most importantly Instagram. Cheryl is an awesome grammar and you can follow us at J and C Toronto Group. That's John and Cheryl, JNC Toronto Group. Until next time. Thank you for joining us and we look forward to bringing you a new podcast and quite a few more here in 2025. [00:53:56] Speaker B: Bye bye. [00:53:58] Speaker A: You have been listening to therealestatepodcast cat visit our website for more episodes and follow us on Instagram, Facebook and YouTube @jnctorontogroup.